Commons:Village pump/Archive/2026/03
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Are these AI generated?
I suspect most images in Category:Butchers in Ireland are AI-generated, because I just felt that they are somehow odd-looking, but I couldn't be sure. Can someone just help take a look at these before I mass nominated them for DR? Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 16:36, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes and also a violation of COM:WEBHOST -Nard (Hablemonos) (Let's talk) 16:42, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- I went and opened a mass DR: Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Butchers in Ireland (sorry, couldn't refrain from the tongue-in-cheek "butcher-related AI slop"...). Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 17:14, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you Nard for your help, and also thank you to Grand-Duc for creating the mass DR and identifying the errors. Tvpuppy (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Now all deleted. I don't think it matters whether we delete this as AI slop or as copyvio. It's one or the other, or possibly (given Irish law) both. Deleting. - Jmabel ! talk 19:53, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you Nard for your help, and also thank you to Grand-Duc for creating the mass DR and identifying the errors. Tvpuppy (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- I went and opened a mass DR: Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Butchers in Ireland (sorry, couldn't refrain from the tongue-in-cheek "butcher-related AI slop"...). Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 17:14, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- This section was archived on a request by: Jmabel ! talk 19:53, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
Mass rename/edit request
Hi. I just uploaded many audio files via Lingua Libre. I thought I had sorted out the settings so that this would not happen, but it included my old username alongside my current one in both the file names and in the "Recorder" field in the description. I would prefer that my old username was not visible like this. Please could someone with permissions rename the files and change the recorder field to Pink Bee? (If the latter cannot be done automatically, I will do it manually.)
I am sorry to have to request this again – like I say, I thought I had sorted the naming issue. I will make sure it does not happen again. Thank you. Pink Bee (talk) 02:02, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Mass rename started. - Jmabel ! talk 06:58, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- @PinkBee: should all be done, let me know if some admin-specific task remains. - Jmabel ! talk 07:36, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Please could "PinkBee" be replaced with "Pink Bee"? This should put the files in Category:Lingua Libre pronunciation by Pink Bee. Pink Bee (talk) 07:55, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Pink Bee I have replaced them, let me know if I have missed any. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Looks good. Thank you :) Pink Bee (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Pink Bee I have replaced them, let me know if I have missed any. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Please could "PinkBee" be replaced with "Pink Bee"? This should put the files in Category:Lingua Libre pronunciation by Pink Bee. Pink Bee (talk) 07:55, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
Wikipedia linking back to Commons
When I used Chrome I used to get a backlink from Wikipedia to Commons in a column on the right side of the article. It would also have the link to Wikidata. What setting in Chrome/Wikimedia did I accidently change to have it gone. RAN (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Richard Arthur Norton, only works on articles with a Wikidata item and sitelinks for other projects on Wikidata. - Alexis Jazz ping plz 02:00, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, but I am not getting any links when they exist. I can go from Commons to Wikipedia through the infobox, but the links back disappeared about a week ago. I must have changed a setting or updated Chrome or Wikimedia settings, but cannot work out what changed. --RAN (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Is there any "In other projects" section at all? (Search for that string within the page.) - Jmabel ! talk 03:20, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- No, let me delete Chrome and re-install it. --RAN (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Perhaps it collapsed into a single Tools button at the top right (next to Edit and History)? The Tools dropdown menu gives me the option to "move to sidebar". --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks!!!! That was it, most likely an errant click that collapsed the sidebar. Simple error, but drastic changes, and not obvious before you figured it out. Thank you again. --RAN (talk) 18:34, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Perhaps it collapsed into a single Tools button at the top right (next to Edit and History)? The Tools dropdown menu gives me the option to "move to sidebar". --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- It might have been a change on Wikipedia end. I use different language wikis (with Firefox browser) and some language wikis have the side bar while others haven't, so I'm guessing that this is not a Chrome issue. Nakonana (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- When you hide the sidebar there's just a Tools dropdown. It stays like this unless you clear cookies or open it with another browser where you haven't hidden the panel yet. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:40, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
Wikidata Infobox
I've always had this set to 'Collapsed', as it's a nuisance. Just today, it's suddenly started being expanded each time I go to a new category, and it's getting tiresome having to click on 'Collapse' on every new link. How can I get it to stay collapsed, please? I can't find it in the Preferences. Thanks! - MPF (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- Maybe you had them collapsed via some gadget. These scripts apparently got disabled since that problem today where wikis were changed to read-only. Prototyperspective (talk) 19:03, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Prototyperspective Could be; no idea, I don't remember! But I want whatever it was back again, ASAP . . . MPF (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @MPF, the collapsed Wikidata Infobox setting is at line 8 of your user JavaScript (User:MPF/common.js), but as mentioned by Prototyperspective, all user JavaScripts have been temporarily disabled. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Tvpuppy thanks! Is there any info on when they might get restored? - MPF (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @MPF, you can monitor phab:T419154 for updates. The site JavaScripts were re-enabled an hour ago, but currently there is no clear info on user JavaScripts, other than they will be "
back online soon, with a few restrictions
". Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2026 (UTC)- @Tvpuppy Thanks! "due to an issue being worked on" . . . remarkably secretive! Wonder what it is??? - MPF (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- Maybe they now prevent loading of JavaScript from other namespaces or even external servers in MediaWiki namespace. I thought this was already the case, but it seems that it was not. GPSLeo (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @MPF, since the issue is related to the security of the site, I would assume it is better for them to be secretive about it until the issue is fixed. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Tvpuppy Thanks! "due to an issue being worked on" . . . remarkably secretive! Wonder what it is??? - MPF (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
Info, see announcement by WMF, it appears user javascripts have now been re-enabled. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 01:15, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Tvpuppy Excellent! Thanks for the updates - MPF (talk) 01:27, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- @MPF, you can monitor phab:T419154 for updates. The site JavaScripts were re-enabled an hour ago, but currently there is no clear info on user JavaScripts, other than they will be "
- @Tvpuppy thanks! Is there any info on when they might get restored? - MPF (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @MPF, the collapsed Wikidata Infobox setting is at line 8 of your user JavaScript (User:MPF/common.js), but as mentioned by Prototyperspective, all user JavaScripts have been temporarily disabled. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Prototyperspective Could be; no idea, I don't remember! But I want whatever it was back again, ASAP . . . MPF (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
Launches to accompany racing crews
I tried and failed to find a category for the launches that typically accompany racing crews during training. Nothing apparent under Category:Boats by function. E.g. File:Bainbridge Island Rowing safety launches 01.jpg or File:2024-12-20, George Pocock Memorial Rowing Center (Seattle), 081910.jpg. Do we actually lack a category for these? - Jmabel ! talk 02:35, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- I think they can be categorized under Category:Launch (boat), or perhaps you can create a new subcat under it. Thanks. Tvpuppy (talk) 02:53, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- I'll make a subcat, Category:Rowing launches. - Jmabel ! talk 07:57, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
"Photographs by" categories
I notice that some of these are hidden cats and some are considered topical. I was surprised to see that Category:Photographs by Asahel Curtis was hidden when Category:Photographs by Edward Sheriff Curtis (his brother) was not, so I changed the former, but now I see Category:Photographs by Frank H. Nowell (among other things, the official photographer of the Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition) is also hidden.
All of these are important enough photographers to have en-wiki articles. Do we have any criteria of how significant a photographer has to be in order to have a topical (vs. hidden) category? - Jmabel ! talk 08:58, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- I thought the "hidden" criterium is more for user categories (photographs by Wikimedians who upload their images by themselves), and "topical" cats for photographers that are non-Wikimedians? --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 10:00, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- That's how I understood the split to be as well. Most "Photographs by photographer" categories are hidden because they're userspace categories. There are a few notable photographers who are also Wikimedians, who can have photographs both in main- and userspace. For the photographers mentioned by Jmabel (and others this would apply to) it doesn't seem fitting to have these categories be hidden. ReneeWrites (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- Same, although there have been a couple incidents where Commons users demanded to be unhidden, and I don't recall there being consensus that it was absolutely required. User categories can get pretty expansive, though, since many of us have hidden category systems we use to organize our own stuff (doesn't make much sense to unhide "Quality images of birds by Rhododendrites" or "Photographs taken by Rhododendrites - Poland"). There's another use case that's often hidden: files from [some particular flickr account]. But in general, yeah I think photographers other than Wikimedians should be unhidden by default. — Rhododendrites talk | 16:08, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- That's how I understood the split to be as well. Most "Photographs by photographer" categories are hidden because they're userspace categories. There are a few notable photographers who are also Wikimedians, who can have photographs both in main- and userspace. For the photographers mentioned by Jmabel (and others this would apply to) it doesn't seem fitting to have these categories be hidden. ReneeWrites (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- Imo category-hiding is slightly overused. Usually it's useful to be able to go to images made by the same person – these often have certain similarities such as subjects the reader/visitor may be interested in. For Commons contributors, people can go to the user-page. For photographers, a category is useful. If I'm not mistaken, hidden categories are not displayed to people who are not logged in and have enabled the display of hidden cats. So it would be best to unhide most if not all of these categories. Categories where there's just very few files in them probably aren't useful. Categories about who made a photo are not topical as they are not about the topic of the image but they're nevertheless useful and not just for maintenance purposes or useful only at the category pages instead of also at the file pages that most people would not benefit from seeing. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:02, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- Btw, it may also be a good idea to link to the category page in the Author field of the information template which currently links to the Wikipedia article. One could add sth via template like (see more photos of this creator/photographer). Then there would be less need for the category to be unhidden but even that would not mean the cat is better hidden. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:07, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
- Typically, the Wikipedia article links (at least by the normal interwiki links via Wikidata) to the main Commons category for the person, and the "Photographs by" category is a subcat. Exactly as for any other creator and their works, if their works (or representations of their works) are on Commons. Not sure why photographers would be different from, say, painters, for this. - Jmabel ! talk 06:37, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Not sure how this is meant to relate to my comment – if one was looking for further photos a direct link to the page with more photos of the photographer that's easily visible to all in the Information template would be useful and the same applies also to painters. Even if that was widely done I think it would be better to unhide these categories. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:12, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Typically, the Wikipedia article links (at least by the normal interwiki links via Wikidata) to the main Commons category for the person, and the "Photographs by" category is a subcat. Exactly as for any other creator and their works, if their works (or representations of their works) are on Commons. Not sure why photographers would be different from, say, painters, for this. - Jmabel ! talk 06:37, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Btw, it may also be a good idea to link to the category page in the Author field of the information template which currently links to the Wikipedia article. One could add sth via template like (see more photos of this creator/photographer). Then there would be less need for the category to be unhidden but even that would not mean the cat is better hidden. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:07, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
It sounds like we aren't certain exactly where to draw the line, but that the people I'm asking about are certainly on the "should not be hidden" side of the line. I will unhide these and similar ones I come across. - Jmabel ! talk 06:37, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
Μιλάς ελληνικά? Do you speak Greek?

Today, 2,700 poorly categorized files have been added to the Category:Images with file name and description in Greek language. All of these need at least one more category, please. Can you help, to categorize them, please, or even use them in an article? Do you have any recommendations, how to achieve this more effectively? NearEMPTiness (talk) 12:26, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
What's the criteria for a new license template?
So there's one user on a site, and on their profile they say all of their uploads are released under a CC BY 4.0 license. There's no license laundering apparent and it appears to be their own work. This user has uploaded thousands of images. Would that warrant creating a separate template and license review category for it? HurricaneZetaC 15:02, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- @HurricaneZeta:
- Why would this entail a new license template? What different license is claimed?
- Yes, this would be an appropriate maintenance category, probably one added by an appropriate, purpose-specific maintenance template. Compare {{UWash-Check-Needed}}, though that one is about needing a cat check, not a license check. - Jmabel ! talk 19:47, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Jmabel I was thinking that the template would categorize it into the category. I have seen quite a few templates like {{Official Prime Video AU & NZ YouTube channel}} (essentially the same as {{YouTube}} with an explanatory note), although maybe something like {{YouTubeReview}} would suffice. HurricaneZetaC 19:54, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- {{Official Prime Video AU & NZ YouTube channel}} exists because it is a special case that is valid but has some date dependencies. Yes, I a special-case variant of {{YouTubeReview}} (possibly a wrapper around that) adding a category specific to this task would be a good solution. - Jmabel ! talk 20:04, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Jmabel I was thinking that the template would categorize it into the category. I have seen quite a few templates like {{Official Prime Video AU & NZ YouTube channel}} (essentially the same as {{YouTube}} with an explanatory note), although maybe something like {{YouTubeReview}} would suffice. HurricaneZetaC 19:54, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
Why Wikipedia Can't Explain Math
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33y9FMIvcWY
commons was mentioned too. worth a watch and lets us think about how we can better engage newcomers. RoyZuo (talk) 19:17, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
- Not specifically a Commons topic but as a person with degrees in both Math (including graduate-level work in topology) and Computer Science, almost every time I tried to edit a math-related article on Wikipedia to make it more comprehensible to lay readers, I was reverted on the basis of insufficient rigor. (I had not removed any existing, rigorous, content, just added paraphrases in lay terms.) Of course I stopped trying. - Jmabel ! talk 19:58, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
Questionable flags
There are quite a lot of purported flags from history on Commons, where their actual historical status is unsourced or otherwise uncertain. Most of the time these have been uploaded in good faith and they're not "fictitious", but they often reflect misconceptions that have gained popularity online. I wasn't sure which template to use, have started a thread at Template talk:Fictitious flag#Disputed flags but I was thinking perhaps to start something more specific like a flag version pf {{Lacking insignia source}}.--Pharos (talk) 19:33, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
A new Mapillary importer: Curator
Hi!
I would like to introduce Curator. It is a tool that allows the import of image sequences from Mapillary. The tool was rolled out and tested and has reached a stable state. Before you try it out, check out COM:Curator and remember issues like Freedom of Panorama. Mapillary covers many areas, which have a Wikipedia article, but no image in it. Or Mapillary maybe shows areas and structures that don't exist anymore. Happy testing! --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 13:31, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
Photo challenge January 2026 results
Hello everyone. It's my "officially" first time to announce the winners of this challenge.
| Rank | 1 | 2 | 3 |
|---|---|---|---|
| image | |||
| Title | Architectural detail on The National Theatre in London. |
beautiful brutalism in Metz | Everson Museum of Art, Syracuse, New York, 1969, currently digitized |
| Author | Julian Herzog | KaiBorgeest | Foeniz |
| Score | 29 | 12 | 12 |
| Rank | 1 | 2 | 3 |
|---|---|---|---|
| image | |||
| Title | Signpost in Christiania (Copenhagen). | Artistic peace symbol at Toronto Distillery District |
Menhire für den Frieden |
| Author | Gzzz | Muzzudan | Fischer1961 |
| Score | 10 | 9 | 9 |
Congratulations to @Julian Herzog, KaiBorgeest, Foeniz, Gzzz, Muzzudan, and Fischer1961. This is Taiwania Justo speaking (Reception Room) 15:41, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Danke Fischer1961 (talk) 20:02, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks :-)) Gzzz zz 20:13, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
- Congrats. The Brutalist architecture has a large number of very high-quality files – the entries/scores gallery is very much worth a visit. I found most files in the Peace challenge didn't have much to do with the subject – it seems difficult to capture this subject in photos. Prototyperspective (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
Flickr upload with Upload Wizard
Is uploading free licensed files from Flickr via Upload Wizard currently down? I've repeatedly tried uploading files by long time good Flickr users with 2 different browsers on 2 different machines and can't get anything to upload. (Uploading files directly from my machine works fine.) Wondering, -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 19:18, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, discussed in Help desk and Technical VP. Reported in phab:T419263. --Geohakkeri (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- seems to work again and this is a technical issue where it would be best to centralize further discussion at the thread in Village_pump/Technical. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
2023-01_ai_image_of_man_01.png
File:2023-01 ai image of man 01.png - AI-generated image of ordinary man, likely isn't useful, but I am not sure about policy. Evelino Ucelo (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- Not specifically against policy, but not terribly useful either. Created Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:AI-generated images by Ziko van Dijk. Omphalographer (talk) 19:07, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- this is not how to file a deletion request Prototyperspective (talk) 12:33, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
Rotate Orthophotos / Aerial Photographs Facing South?
While trying to georeference a bunch of aerial photographs from Staatsarchiv Sigmaringen Findbuch Wü 160 T 5, I've found that some (but not all) of those photos are facing south (in german: "gesüdet"; example for photo facing south), not north as usual ("genordet"). Aerial images facing south are hard to work with, since nowadays all modern maps (and modern Orthophotos) are facing north. Currently, there's no category for aerial photographs / orthophotos with such a cardinal direction, as it's the case for maps. Is it OK to rotate the images currently facing south by 180° or should they keep their current orientation? What's your opinion? --Fl.schmitt (talk) 10:12, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Fl.schmitt: I think we can rotate this images. There now loss of information after the rotation. Thanks for your work with this orthophotos and for the georeferene. --sk (talk) 11:50, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- If you wish to make rotations, they should be as derivative images.
- Also, the example image is not "facing south"; it is facing straight down. It is (presumably) orientated with south at the top". We would talk about images facing in a compass direction when they are oblique (like, for example File:Raf 58 2445 psfo 0117.png). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:40, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- Probably best to make the rotation into a derivative image with an explanatory note about the rotation because if you rotate the image you gave as an example, the numbers at the top of the image will come up upside-down and people might attempt to fix that by rotating the image back. Nakonana (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Nakonana and @Pigsonthewing: ok, derivative images are another option. Regarding the numbers on the pics: There are different ways that those numbers were applied - some have the same numbers multiple times, e.g. this pic. So, an explanatory note would be in fact useful - good idea! Fl.schmitt (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
Why is overwrite controlled by abusefilter
- Commons:Village_pump/Proposals/Archive/2023/08#c-GPSLeo-20230813073100-Limit_file_overwriting_to_users_with_autopatrol_rights decided to limit overwrite.
- overwrite is specifically "reupload" a permission set by the software Special:ListGroupRights.
why is it not done by removing "reupload" from autoconfirmed users and adding it to autopatrolled users? RoyZuo (talk) 15:49, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- This would currently not allow any exceptions without granting user rights, not even for own uploads. GPSLeo (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- this seems solved; if not please remove this template Prototyperspective (talk) 12:41, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
People voices audios
Where can I find all of them? Is there any common category? I've found only Category:Voice project but it contains not only audios. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infovarius (talk • contribs) 12:26, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Infovarius: If your start point the Category:Voice project then you can use the search with this searchtext: deepcategory:"Voice project" filetype:Audio. --sk (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- Category:Audio files of human voices if I understood you correctly. --Prototyperspective (talk) 14:28, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
- You may also be interested in Com:Voice intro project. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:31, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
GPS data
If I have an image and want to show where it was taken I can use: {{Location|40.0000|-70.000}}. But what if I want to link an address in a news article, so that it can take me to one of the mapping sites, we link to. Id there a template for that? --RAN (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
- Closest thing I can think of is {{Inline coordinates}}. - Jmabel ! talk 18:46, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks! That is closest I will get. You can see the experiment here: File:Salters in the 1877 Gouldings New York City Directory.png, an old city directory. --RAN (talk) 19:07, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
- seems to be solved – if not, please remove this template Prototyperspective (talk) 12:46, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
Sports statistic question
I am transcribing File:1915 in Sports in The New York Times of New York City, New York on December 12, 1915.jpg but I do not understand a portion of the sport timing. A typical line reads for a timed event: "440-Yard High Hurdles - William Henry Meanix, Boston A. A. Time, 0:52 3-5." What does the "3-5" mean? --RAN (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): My guess would be three fifths of a second, in common typography .6 or 3/5 or ⅗. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 17:10, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks! I think you got it. Distances are marked as "¾ inch". The typesetter had type for 1/4, 3/4 and 1/2 for measuring distance. They did not have fifths, and all times were measured down to the fifth of a second. Thanks again. ChatGPT: "Races were recorded in fifths of a second starting around 1862". --RAN (talk) 17:16, 12 March 2026 (UTC)